Warning about feeding with nuts

[Matt Lusty]

I'm writing this post with a lump in my throat.

Both my female pouched rats have died and the male is going downhill fast. I fed them a mixed bag of nuts yesterday which they ate. Having done this with various nuts before I never thought anything of it. I didn't really think to look in the mixed bag, but have now come to realise it had hazelnuts in, which I haven't fed them before. I have just been on to the vet and before I mentioned which nuts I've fed, she told me it was an allergic reaction to the hazelnuts!

I am absolutely gutted. I'm taking the male down the vets now as it's my only chance to save him. I'm not holding out much hope for him though.

Just letting people know to check any mixed bag of nuts and NOT to feed hazelnuts!!!

[Luce]

awww i am so sorry to hear this. and i am so sorry for you losses... it is 'good' in a horrible way that you can inform other owners of this risk but at such devastating costs for you to be able to find this out

i hope hes ok and pulls through(h)

xx

[loulou]

oh god Matt no I am so sorry for you and the girls, everything is crossed here for your wee lad I really hope he pulls through for you

[Fixx]

Aww Matt, I'm gutted for you, fingers crossed the male pulls through.

[Ratatouille]

Oh no Matt, I am so sorry. But thank you for warning us at the sad time.

[LyddicleaveBurrow]

Matt..........I am so, so sorry for your loss

You must be devastated..........I hope that your pouchie boy makes it.

RIP ratty girls

Heather.

[Matt Lusty]

Just got back from the vets and this is how things are looking.

The largest female (Georgina) was resuscitated and is alive! The other didn't make it at all. Gambit is still alive and is having treatment for an allergic reaction to the hazelnuts. It may be a toxicity in the nuts or a fungal thing also to do with the nuts. Georgina is on a drip and is having activated charcoal to try to flush out the toxins, so hopefully they will pull through. I don't hold out much hope for Georgina though TBH

A post mortem was done on Gerty and nothing was found to be wrong. They are letting me know more tomorrow morning. Fingers crossed everyone.

[loulou]

oh Matt i do hope your wee girl and lad pull through, everything here is crossed

what a rollercoaster for you and the rats

[GreaterBeastXellas]

Oh I hope the two pull through *hugs*

[Ratatouille]

Oh Matt, I hope the two pull through, cannot stop thinking about you and the ratties Was so pleased to read just now that Georgina has been resusitated.

Fingers crossed that the next news is good news

[Grumpymouth]

Oh, Matt I am so sorry to hear about your little ones

I'm worried now because I have fed Ben hazelnuts in the past and I haven't witnessed a reaction - maybe they were contaminated with a fungus or something, or maybe it was a genetic predisposition? If the vets can find any cause that would be great, the more we can understand about the pouchies the better. I had never thought nuts could be a problem, but I will never feed them hazelnuts again!

Good luck for Georgina and Gambit, lots and lots of love

Kelly & Ben

[Matt Lusty]

Picked them BOTH up today. Had a phone call around 10am this morning saying that they had both become very alive and very feisty! Bearing in mind Georgina had died and had been brought back last night!

The verdict is they had an anaphylactic shock due to the hazelnuts. They were both put into an incubator and given activated charcoal and an injection of adrenaline. The activated charcoal absorbed the poison and the adrenaline combatted the shock. I couldn't believe the difference when I picked them both up this morning. Gambit had tried to take a chunk out of the vet nurses finger, the ungrateful sod!

All in all, I'm shocked about the nuts and also very relieved they are both ok.

I hope I've made others aware of the dangers of feeding hazelnuts to their animals. I for one wont be doing it again!

[kodakira]

sorry just seen this post, have not been on for a day or two.

So sorry to hear about your rats. Glad to hear the other two are picking up.

Best Wishes

Neil

[Ratatouille]

So glad that your latest news was good! But RIP little Gerty

[loulou]

Matt what can I say, its such wonderful news two of them are alive well and home, and typical that one cheeky bugger took a chunk out of a finger

I am so sorry for your loss of your girl the poor wee thing her death wont be in vain but it relieves me to know you have such brilliant vets that worked like troopers and saved the other two

[LyddicleaveBurrow]

Hi Matt,

It's fantastic news that Georgina and Gambit pulled through!

You have been through a nightmare and have lost a beautiful girl, but at least you had fantastic vets and the other two wonderful ratties are still with you.

RIP Gerty.

Heather.

[Matt Lusty]

Thanks for all your kind words.

The first thing I thought of was to get straight onto my vet, who admittedly knew nothing about Pouchies, but knew of someone who did. The were conversing by phone with each other while I was there and the other vet said straight away when the hazelnuts were mentioned that was what it was and he's seen other animals with similar symptoms. He was the guy who told my vet what was needed. Fair play to him he worked through the night with them both.

The other thing that happened, was the breathing became very slow as the airways became narrow. They were effectively suffocating to death. Unfortunately Gerty didn't make it. Gambit also swelled up in his pouchies. By the time I got him to the vets the swelling had gone down, but his breathing was still terrible. All of them had a drop in temp. Georgina's temp was not even registering! This was why they used the incubator.

I'm writing this to let others know what the signs are. I will be making the same post on the other forums too

[Rie xx]

Thats great news bout your pouchies matt!! I'd b absolutely loss without my little lady!!
Maybe someone could do a post of what gambians/emins can eat and what they can't?? Pouchie?? Loulou? I use this forum like a bible always double check what people have written..

All good Matt bout your little pouchies... xxx

[Pouchie]

Check out the Diet Thread Rie. We have covered the what not to eats at the end of the thread:

http://www.exotickeepersforum.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=86

[Rie xx]

Cheers Caroline..xx

[Ratpets]

Both my female pouched rats have died and the male is going downhill fast. I fed them a mixed bag of nuts yesterday which they ate.

Hello Matt,
What a sad message- I feel sad,too...

Just letting people know to check any mixed bag of nuts and NOT to feed hazelnuts!!!

Feeding peanuts can be very dangerous, too (peanuts often are in parrot food, and are dangerous for birds, too), because in the space between shell and nut there can be the dangerous fungus Aspergillus that can lead to poisonings. Our vet also told us not to feed even nuts from biological cultivation. They are dangerous as well.

[Pouchie]

I think we are just going to stop feeding nuts altogether.

It is so tough because nuts are supposed to be a large part of their diet and it is hard to know which is the lesser of two evils, feeding nuts and risking toxins or potentially having our pouched rats miss out on an important part of their diet.

[Ratatouille]

Are you even going to stop feeding monkey nuts too? They are the only ones I have offered to Ben out of the parrot mix, but he has not touched them anyway

[Pouchie]

Are you even going to stop feeding monkey nuts too? They are the only ones I have offered to Ben out of the parrot mix, but he has not touched them anyway

The nuts in rodent mix I would trust, except Erika's comment about peanuts worries me!

oooo its so hard not to over-react but having lost two of my beloved Emins to potentially diet related causes, I am not sure I am being objective anymore

[Rie xx]

Winnie absolutely loves monkey nuts!! I was talking to a chap who use to work with GPR'S at the zoo a couple of weeks ago and he said about nuts being a large part of there diet!! Its a shame if we do stop giving nuts.. But hey ho i'd rather have a healthy happy winnie pig! Then be worring when i've gone to bed about the nuts shes eating! I thought it was just hazel nuts that was the problem?!

[Rie xx]

Hang on I'm a bit confused!! The only nuts winnie have is monkey nuts and the nuts out of the parrot mix.. Peanuts do they have a shell? I've never seen a peanut shell only a peanut! .com here

[Ratpets]

The nuts in rodent mix I would trust, except Erika's comment about peanuts worries me!
oooo its so hard not to over-react but having lost two of my beloved Emins to potentially diet related causes, I am not sure I am being objective anymore

Hi Pouchie,

I thought miscellaneous nuts with unshelled nuts in food quality we can offer our GPRS.
But AFLATOXINS can also occur in many nuts with or without shells, in sunflower seeds, as well as in all kind of cereals. This is not from me, but I was told so by a laboratory for food and water analysis.

Best regards

[Pouchie]

The nuts in rodent mix I would trust, except Erika's comment about peanuts worries me!
oooo its so hard not to over-react but having lost two of my beloved Emins to potentially diet related causes, I am not sure I am being objective anymore

Hi Pouchie,

I thought miscellaneous nuts with unshelled nuts in food quality we can offer our GPRS.
But AFLATOXINS can also occur in many nuts with or without shells, in sunflower seeds, as well as in all kind of cereals. This is not from me, but I was told so by a laboratory for food and water analysis.

Best regards

Erika
with Rocky and Romeo

Hi Erika

I do not know much about afloxatins apart from they come from peanut shells and sometimes the peanuts themselves. If they are also found in other nuts, seeds AND cereal then I doubt we have much hope of cutting out this danger completely.

I believe it was unshelled food quality nuts that Matt had fed to his GPR. I also used human grade supermarket nuts and have lost two EPR from possibly the same cause.

What surprises me, is that pouched rats are affected at all by food quality. They have evolved to eat rotting food and this I presume is why they love to store food in and around their nest, preferring to eat it a little gone over and not perfectly fresh.

Hence I have always been happy to give my pouched rats fruit and veg that is a little out of date or past its best (NOT rotten or mouldy!)

[Ratpets]

Hi, Pouchie!

I do not know much about afloxatins apart from they come from peanut shells and sometimes the peanuts themselves. If they are also found in other nuts, seeds AND cereal then I doubt we have much hope of cutting out this danger completely.
I believe it was unshelled food quality nuts that Matt had fed to his GPR. I also used human grade supermarket nuts and have lost two EPR from possibly the same cause.

We have no way to completely exclude that nuts and cereals are totally free of toxins. But I believe that even here the amount is important, as well as the general condition of the animals. A "healthy" animal cope with a certain amount of pollutants, an animal with weak immune systems become sick with a smaller quantity. Even if we feed human grade supermarket nuts, we should not just offer large quantities.

What surprises me, is that pouched rats are affected at all by food quality. They have evolved to eat rotting food and this I presume is why they love to store food in and around their nest, preferring to eat it a little gone over and not perfectly fresh.
Hence I have always been happy to give my pouched rats fruit and veg that is a little out of date or past its best (NOT rotten or mouldy!)

Norvegian rats also store large quantities in their burrows, but do not eat the spoiled stocks!
I do not believe that GPRs like food out of date or past preference. Food "hoarding" is only natural behaviour. I am sure that GPRs eat no old food, even if it is in their burrows.
BTW: What about treatment against parasites (worms, etc.)? Do you make a faeces examination by a lab or do you give preventive antiparasitika?

Best regards

[Pouchie]

Norvegian rats also store large quantities in their burrows, but do not eat the spoiled stocks!
I do not believe that GPRs like food out of date or past preference. Food "hoarding" is only natural behaviour. I am sure that GPRs eat no old food, even if it is in their burrows.

Hi Erika,

I believe it has been proven that GPR have evolved to make use of food that is past its best. Here is a quote from:
http://www.altpet.net/rodents/cricetomys/gprat2.html

Giant rats have complex gut structures and slow passage rates, enabling them to utilize poor quality food.

[Ratpets]

Hello Pouchie!

I believe it has been proven that GPR have evolved to make use of food that is past its best. Here is a quote from:
http://www.altpet.net/rodents/cricetomys/gprat2.html

Thanks for that link! I think I've been on that site a time ago.

Giant rats have complex gut structures and slow passage rates, enabling them to utilize poor quality food.

Couldn't it be that GPRs are capable to handle food shortages, say to use bad quality food when “good” food is not available? This doesn’t mean that they prefer bad food.

[Pouchie]

Hi Erika, yes I think that is probably more accurate.

My point isnt that they prefer bad food but that in theory, as they have evolved to make use of it, then food past its best shouldnt harm them. Hence toxins or fungus that may have had time to grow on a nut, shouldnt harm them.

In theory...

[loulou]

fruit spoils really fast in Gambia though, we had GPRs nick very overripe fruit from outside our room over night when we were there, the fruit that falls from the trees does not take long to turn. granted they also nick food from the locals and the kitchens but they get killed for it so are qite human shy normally, they are eaten in parts of the Gambia themselves

[Ratpets]

Hello Pouchie

Hi Erika, yes I think that is probably more accurate.

Seems there’s a slow approximation of our opinions

My point isnt that they prefer bad food but that in theory, as they have evolved to make use of it, then food past its best shouldnt harm them. Hence toxins or fungus that may have had time to grow on a nut, shouldnt harm them.
In theory...

For me, the point is that there’s a difference between spoiled and old food. For example, I can have an old piece of bread that I still can eat, but, however, I can have a mouldy bread I also can eat, but that I certainly should not.
I do not believe that there’s an immunity against any fungus in (Pouched) rats. Aflatoxin for instance is one of the strongest carzinogens ever known (to be found in many nuts) and leads to liver cancer in all tested animals (amongst them certainly a lot of rats).
I don’t know how much and/or often a rat can feed on spoiled food, and I doubt that you always can see a fungus on food to make a difference between old and spoiled food. So I wouldn’t risk to feed my rats on “suspect” food.

P.S.
The warning concerning the peanuts comes from APOPO.

Best regards

[oojintyoo]

Matt I am so sorry to read of your loss, what a rollercoaster of emotions I have felt reading from 1st post to the 2nd post. Thankfully the vets did all they could and found out what they didn't know.

I hope your girl and boy are still doing well.

RIP little one

As for the nuts wow what a concern now.

[kendallsmum8]

I am so sorry to hear bout your loss. I know how tough losing one of your babies can be.

Wow I just read about the Hazel Nuts. I never had a problem with them. At least I don't think I did. I know she used to eat the walnuts and Chestnuts and the Brazil Nuts but I never noticed her eating the hazel nuts. She just seemed to like stuffing them in her cheek pouches. I certainly hope it wasn't me that may have killed her. Now that is something I'll be thinking about. If and when I can get another one I will think twice about feeding Hazel Nuts.

I am so glad to hear that you AND your vet were able to get the two left treated as fast as they did. I hope at this time they are still doing well. And you should be lucky that you have vets there that even know how to treat them. There aren't any here. One maybe. She would try anything and this site helps alot.

kendallsmum

[Ratatouille]

Just in case anyone does not yet know, sadly Matt lost all three of his GPRs, if you want to see his posts please go to this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=833#p4413